Possible rule idea's

[Toymax]

These guys with their opinions are all blokes who have absolutely no idea the commitment and dollars it costs to run a competitive sports sedan ( even at state level ) because they have never done it. I like the idea of the bigger wings and making the cars look more modern and aggressive but it needs to be done in a gradual and realistic fashion.
Regards
Shane Bradford

Thanks for putting Shane's comments up Phil. I tend to agree with them. Would you mind asking him though, which guys with their opinions he is referring to? I went back through the thread and as far as I can tell, everyone who has provided input has either run, is running or is building a sports sedan. I can't speak for profi or 2jzss, only because I don't actually know who they are (the joys of using call names on forums), but everyone else who has provided comment I would think has a pretty good idea of the costs and commitment involved.

[MrBoost]

Thanks for the input shane,

you are correct the other cars arent that close to nemo, but they are still capable of 1.27 flat lap times. I wouldnt be surprised at all to see nemo do a 1.22 - why? because its bullshit if you think it had 680bhp at the wheels. It could only manage 240kph down the front straight. They blew the 680hp engine up a few weeks before the event so ran an old shitter they had there making 500bhp.
Dont believe me ring chris eaton yourself. Apart from that you could count on your hands and toes how many laps the car had done at speed since being built before that event.

I also happen to know both the aero designer and the carbon guys behind nemo. The body cost around 40k. Hows that measure up with phils total build cost?

yes the tyres are only good for 2 - 3 laps in a row, ours arent much better. For example at a quick glance most of our guys seem to lose 3 secs a lap over a race distance at smp. I know they are super sticky, im just going off what the tyre manufacturer tells me. Who am i to argue?

These top cars have all gone quicker again since that event too. Im directly refering to competitors like garth walden (kostinken), murray coote (earl bamber) suzuki under - (the international super star) who works out of his home garage and hand builds everything himself. He does his own body now as he has taught himself how to use carbon over the last few years.
He is an absolute perfect example of a 'original sports sedan builder' he does it in his backyard with barely any outside help - do some research - http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2618/under-suzukis-scorch-racing-s15-the-diy-time-attack-otaku.aspx

I never said the cars were 'cheap' but they are relatively cheap compared to our build costs in some cases. Has anyone heard the aston figures floating around? stuffed if i know which one is true but by god if its even near some figures ive heard they could have built 2 nemo's. Who really knows what nemo cost but from 3 sources who all work on the team that i am friends with, it was around 350k to build nemo. Just as an example of how they saved money like alot of us do. They used ginetta uprights all round on the car. These uprights can be purchased brand new with bearings hubs etc from ginetta in the uk for $500 a corner. It has holden astra power steering....

Go check out murray cootes build. Its still mainly a steel bodied car, with a holinger gearbox, there own shocks, some crazy looking yet extremely functional aero (that was very cheap), a 20k nissan sr20 engine, some skyline brakes and and a nissan diff. Its probably the cheapest one out there and did 1.27's - rear wheel drive. http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2795/nerds-eye-view-the-mca-suspensions-hammerhead-silvia-s13.aspx Im told its build cost is UNDER 100k and id believe it too as they are like some of us and do everything themselves in the back shed.

The other top one that garth walden drives is the tilton interioirs car. It is a steel bodied evo with an off the shelf voltex aero kit which actually looks very smart and not 'crazy' at all. Check out its specs on the net too. Id say that car was around 200k MAX and when it did its 1.27 flat it had a broken centre diff so it basically did its whole lap front wheel drive.... be ready to see that thing go much quicker this year. It has the cosworth parts right through its engine which delivered to oz to your door is under 20k. It hasnt broken an engine, actually other than when the american's came over a few years back no one seems to break there gazillion horsepower evo engines.

chris and yourself would have been 10th and back as 9th did a 1.30.8, the only 'international cars' in the top 10 were suzuki under (the backyard man and also the quicklest one) and yes the other two i have no idea on the budgets etc. But looking at the cars there not that much, (id say between 100-200k) Its not like these international guys have all this cash and budget to come over for the event. The event is that successful THEY PAY them to come over and pay for the cars to be shipped here.
http://www.the-lowdown.com/top-fuel-voltex-s2000/
http://www.nengun.com/re-amemiya/
check them out there both just car workshops in japan that are into racing.

So now you know a bit more about them what do you think?


Back to the rule change, yeh i agree we cant go to big, ive had some proposals or ideas from people sent to me and some want huge changes that are cool and are where we should be but would kill our category. Some people (as in current competitors) have sent through HUGE changes.
I originally put forward the wing idea as its a really cheap and easy change. I also put forward the splitter change for the same reason. A spiltter change could cost you a 2000mm X 1000mm sheet of aluminium and some sweat and would be instantly effective doen right. Im a scrape the barrel racer and i too dont want costs to go nuts.
Alot of people want the rear of the front garuds to be allowed to be opened. I really like that idea but as some of us are guilty of making things look ugly - open gaurds could get out of hand. It was great that the rule was put in place to allow the bonnet venting and some people are using the rule as gaurd venting. Maybe we could just enlarge the maximum vented area allowed? For example at the moment you kind of have to choose a bonnet vent or a gaurd vent you cant have both. Apart from the aero advantage these also make it alot nicer in the car for some of us! What do people think is opening your current gaurds a big job? I think it is coz im useless with fibreglass haha.

I only myself suggested the wing and front splitter as i thought these were two easy gradual changes that have a good effect.

Im not sure who's opinions he means either toymax, maybe its from the facebook thread?
profi builds sports sedans for a living but doesnt have much experience running one but certainly knows the costs involved. Im not sure of 2jzss background or Johns.

everyone else has run multiple state and most of us national championships.

[MrBoost]

someone said the rules are frozen at the moment for 2 years, is that right?

[2JZSS]

I'm not sure why people are questioning my or Profi's background or whether we know what motorsport costs.... All we asked for was bigger rear wings and a bit more leniency in the aero department.

Ive raced anything and everything i can get my hands on since i was 13 years old. Some s*** boxes some good cars.

I can't speak for Profi but as i'm building a car you'd think i'd be acutely aware as what it takes to build a car. Perhaps i should have just bought one from the USA?..... I'm not going to go into what my car is costing but i could honestly say that you'd be very lucky to escape with a decent car for under 100k. That's not to say it can't be done as there have been a few bargains lately that would make that statement null and void (Cox Saab was a steal!).

As far as racing a championship here's a few conservative numbers. Lets take the nationals for example.


Entrys: $1573.00 inc gst per event x 5 events = $7865.00

Tires: To be competitive you have to have a new set of dunlops for each meet. For a 18" shod car with 310F and 330R youd be looking at $2846.00 a set x 5 = $14230.00 obviously less the dunlop rebate at the end.

Travel: Most have trucks. I know i will so therefore at $1.52 a litre for diesel and travelling from qld to nsw/vic the minimum on a return trips is probably 1000-2000 depending on how fuel effifcient your rig is. Add in maintenance on the truck and it all adds up.

Accomodation: Perhaps you sleep in your truck or you get a motel. Most racemeets are a 2-3 night affair so 3 nights at a conservative 200.00 a night x 5 race meets = 3000.00

Fuel: Some teams run super high octane RON113... or perhaps E85. Either way your probably looking at over atleast $2.50-$5.00 a litre. On a race weekend your sucking down the juice like it's going out of fashion. With practice, qually and races you'd use around 100-200 L so about 500-1000 bucks depending on what you run. Perhaps you only run pump... half your luck!

Brake pads/Rotors: You'd have a new set of these in for a race meet. Others dont but i always have as cheap insurance. Say 400-600 for pads and 1500-2000 for a set of rotors.

I could go into the fact most teams probably have 2 motors, 2 gerboxes, 2 diffs and ring gears, shocks, wheels, bodywork etc. Probably enough spares for a second car. That in itself is probably another 20-60k of gear that teams lug around with them to each meet.

So yeah i'd say i have a fair grasp on what it costs to run a sports sedan for a season.

To be honest i have no idea what this has to do with the topic?....


All i'm asking for is a bit more aero. A larger rear wing like MrBoost is proposing, a front splitter also like his proposal and perhaps a freeing up of the vents on the bonnet and the rear of the front guards.

Not much cost involved to do this and in the scheme of things it's hardly going to break the bank. What it will do is make the cars faster and make them look meaner like in their heyday. Don't we all want that?

[mazcort]

Nick. This is the problem with change. Old dogs do not like to be taught new tricks and new rules are not taken lightly. The young generation have to live by the 1960 rules. Come on guys step up to the year 2013 and start promoting the catergory, upgrade the rules and we might start to look like the days of old when people actually used to come out and watch. Yes the drift and time attack cars are all the rage now BECAUSE they do run by modern rules."GO FIGURE"

[Phast Phil]

I think the old dogs add balance and some common sense into the debate, otherwise some of the young guns may rule change themselves into oblivion.

One of the most successful, if not the most successful, racing series in the world is closely maintained and could be accused of being old school. Yes I am talking about NASCAR.

Call me what you want but I am not interested in rebuilding my new 2012 body shape car into something else any time soon and to my old dog eyes it looks pretty cool just as it is.

Maybe I should argue to get rid of all of the old shape cars? I think that old Commodores and Datsuns and Toranas (not yours Damian of course), minis and old RX7's etc have had their day and should be updated to the types of cars they build time attack cars from now as well as new cars like the Audi, Aston martin, Monaros and Jaguar for example. To be honest the 20-30 year old cars are probably the ones that are holding progress and interest from prospective fans back, not an extra 100MM wide wing.

As for my new transam body, it is an across the counter item (actually you have to order one and wait 6 weeks) and they cost about $14,000 from ACS.

[toranaracer]

I do remember many years ago a previous championship administrator proposing an age limit on vehicles to be eligible to compete at National level.
Unfortunatly most of the top cars at the time were "too old" in body shape to comply even back then!! :thinking:

New cars have their place to the younger fans, however our old Torana brings a crowd where ever we put it on display with stories of the "good old days".

I am sure no matter how hard anyone tried, a "Time Attack" spec bodied Torana would look ridiculous.

toranaracer

[Topgear]

I think we need to put things into perspective...
Years ago there was no V8Supercar as a competing category so Sports Sedans had it all to them selves,
Racing was cheaper in relationship to income than it is now days,
And sports in general didnt have computers, iphones and playstations to compete with as far as entertaining people,

As far as the category moving forwards I think we need a mix of maturity and a view to look at new ideas...
As much as Time Attack cars are extremely fast, I believe its not as good a spectacle to watch as a group of cars,
Why is it popular...?
They are cars that the new generation relates to... Ive got an OLD FX holden sports sedan I am restoring which those who saw in the day reckon its great, but the new generation couldnt care less, and I can appreciate that...
Also what makes the time attack big is they are international teams competing, it happens once a year, and they have huge facilities for companies to promote themselves (http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/dates-announced-for-wtac-2013/)

Ive been to smaller local events and the crowds are nothing like this one off event, in adelaide they dont even run time attack events any more...

I think to some degree Simon Podlewskis Silvia is what a lot of the new generation would follow,
http://www.speedhunters.com/2011/08/car_feature_gt_gt_morpowa_180sx/
If we compare then to now, look at what Sports Sedans where 40yrs ago, an LJ Torana, with a 350chev, top loader gearbox, 9" diff, with big fat wheels and a wing!

Now days its a Nissan Silvia, 6cyl turbo, holden 6spd gearbox, and a Nissan GTR diff... with big fat wheels and a wing!
And Simons car gets a good following by the younger generation, and he is trying to get them to look at the sports sedan category and become competitors but they only see the one car that interests them to watch... Although people are showing interest... but to be honest the younger guys have never heard of Sports Sedans... They ask are they Speedway cars?

Thats just my thougts but im for anything that gets more younger guys involved...

[jd yort]

To be honest the 20-30 year old cars are probably the ones that are holding progress and interest from prospective fans back

So that means Alfa GTV's are holding the category back... Basil & Tony would love that statement Phil.

[Phast Phil]

The statement was not made to please and make friends, sometimes you have to call it warts and all, after all this debate was about modernising the look of cars and that may be best done by running modern cars????